Lip Sync - Node 2i (digital out)
Answered
Greetings!
Having below setup:
TV Sony XE9005 (Optical out) -> Node 2i (COAX Out) -> Genelec 8330a
There is annoying Lip Sync issue
I can adjust Lip Sync in Node 50ms-150ms, but delay is less than 50ms.
Any thought how to tackle this?
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Official comment
What happens if you use analogue out? We often see external DACs adding their own delay.
We cannot lower the delay lower than 50ms for multiplayer grouping reasons.
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Tony, the thing is:
1. Bluesound Powernode 2i owners manual located on your website at https://www.bluesound.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/POWERNODE_2i_Owners_Manual_July2019.pdf states the following:
"HDMI ARC: Using an HDMI cable, connect one end to the HDMI ARC input of the POWERNODE 2i and the other end to an ARC-enabled HDMI output on your television. You may be required to enable ARC in your TV settings. Consult your user manual for more information. The HDMI source will appear as HDMI in the Navigation Drawer of the BluOS App."2. Powernode page on your website is featured with pictures of a Powernode 2i as a center of home theatre system:
2.1. https://www.bluesound.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/POWERNODE-2i-Feature-x-On-credenza-with-TV.jpg - even the name of picture here
2.2. https://www.bluesound.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/WHT-POWERNODE-2i-amp-large-speakers.jpg3. Video introducing Powernode on a Powernode page depicts Powernode 2i as a center of home theatre system https://youtu.be/VSBPYW87szM
So Bluesound Powernode 2i is clearly designed and intended for use with TV as a center of home theatre system.
We, your users, have a problem which is spoiling our experience with your great product.
First problem was reported 4 years ago, it's already enough time passed for you to consider it.
But all we're getting is "thanks for feedback" and attempts to assure us that this should be this way.
Instead of something substantial like promise to fix it in some adequate time.
So please contact the developers and return with something real.
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Hi there!
As a new, but perhaps late owner of the Powernode 2i I would also like to contribute to this thread.
Just this week I replaced my previous network receiver Marantz NR1200 with the more upmarket Powernode 2i. For the record - there was ZERO problems even with the lower priced device with lip sync from any source out of the TV whatsoever. So any claims by the support with recommendations to check cables, networks or TVs for the sound sync issue are simply wrong. It worked perfect as it was designed to.
Obviously Powernode 2i is not designed to perform this task ideally as the default 50ms lip-sync delay is embedded out of the box, which I see it just as a huge oversight by the developers team.
With this delay I would prefer to select TV sound instead of the excellent stereo from Powernode and wait until this is resolved with the next firmware update. It was an unpleasant surprise for me to learn that the product with "HDMI" in it's name cannot perform HDMI right in the first place.
Current set-up:
LG TV OLED55C9PLA -> Bluesound Powernode 2i -> Q Acoustics 3050i4 -
Hi, Tony!
Can you explain why don't you want to help us with this issue please?
It is definitely a minor issue and it can be fixed by almost any developer in minutes. Maybe little more if you will choose to implement some logic or extra UI around the solution.
We have found the exact problem – it's the artificial delay added with some Perl-script command:
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info ./ms.pl: CaptureCodec::setLatencyLimits CaptureCodec.pm (265) lowLatency=1 latencyLimits=50,150
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info dspout: Command(l=8): L50
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info dspout: capture_latency: 250000µs -> 50000µs
You can just allow us to use values down to 0 here and that's all, problem fixed.
And you will have one more qualified answer in your personal Bluesound knowledge base ;-)
PS: I've managed to measure audio lag and found it's around 90-92 ms. Looks like ~40 ms is the sound processing delay and 50 ms is the controllable one.
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Krzysiek Kowalski You will still get 60ms delay over optical.
Jan Smede Right now, only one way to reduce 400ms delay over Bluetooth is to use external Bluetooth DAC/adapter. I'm using SMSL m200 with analog output and it's perfectly 'OK' for video content.
Antknee Williamson People are waiting for update/progress on optical delay issue, not just a link to some old post.
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I agree with others, why should this work over powernode but node 2i. Bluetooth I also understand but not optical.
Please give an update on update/progress on the optical delay issue, not another link acting like issue has been resolved when it has not.
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+1
I just want to add my frustration as a powernode 2i user. I have followed along with this thread since last year and want to add my issues with others.The delay renders home cinema painfully frustrating. Delay is enough to make me 2nd guess every scene and loose the enjoyment. My TV and speakers are waisted on this.
I am pretty shocked by Tony W's way of treating customers. Is he really trying to turn his nose up/arrogance at so many people and lose a lot of respect for the brand. Needs to take a long think about that.
This is definitely being marketed as a home cinema and audio device so it's disingenuous to act like this isn't relevant.
I can't see how prioritising sorround sound capability when the device is either "not intended for TV" or there's a critical issue with delay. Either option doesn't make sense.
I'd appreciate a genuine update about whether there has been any effort to investigate and determine a solution and time frame to implement.
Setup:
PN 2i (no hdmi)
Bowers 606
Audioquest optical cable Pearl3 -
Hi, Tony!
Only thing changed in my audio chain is Powernode, and I have never seen noticeable delay before.
>As mentioned, for grouping reasons we cannot lower the timing to less than 50ms. This level is in fact lower than the industry standard for multipurpose streamers.
But I'm not using groups at all and don't plan to, why can't you just allow me to lower timing while no groups present?
Logic in this case can be that simple:
1. There are any groups? Lock minimum delay to 50 ms.
2. There are no groups? Unlock minimum delay or lock it to real hardware minimum.
3. Group added, but selected delay is less than 50 ms? Raise it up to 50 ms and lock minimum delay to 50 ms.
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Sure, but what about my request?
I like your product, it's really nice and convenient, but delay in movies is killing me.
I don't want to use groups, so 50 ms looks like some artificial restriction for my amplified stereo-only setup.
Do you plan to do something about it? Is there are any options to get rid of it? Maybe some hidden engineering menu, or something like that?
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Evgenii, found following from logfile
When Disabling AV Mode
Jun 18 17:35:41 (none) user.info ./ms.pl: CaptureCodec::setLatencyLimits CaptureCodec.pm (265) lowLatency=0 latencyLimits=250,1000Jun 18 17:35:41 (none) user.info dspout: Command(l=10): L250
Jun 18 17:35:41 (none) user.info dspout: capture_latency: 50000µs -> 250000µs
When Enabling AV Mode (50ms)
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info ./ms.pl: CaptureCodec::setLatencyLimits CaptureCodec.pm (265) lowLatency=1 latencyLimits=50,150
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info dspout: Command(l=8): L50
Jun 18 17:35:47 (none) user.info dspout: capture_latency: 250000µs -> 50000µs
So looks like Disabling AV Mode sets Delay to 250ms??? Should go to other direction (close to 0ms)
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Antknee Williamson we are still waiting for a response to Jan Smede post??!
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Just to inform you all, as I don't like to be sent around by links. Tonys answer was not an answer but a statement: "We do not support lip-sync grade synchronisation with Bluetooth and have never professed to. We do support lip-sync on the POWERNODE if connected via optical or HDMI".
Since I have not been able to find anything in the Bluesound presentation about any audio latency I find this statement very startling. What else have you never professed to?
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Hello
I'm just here to say thanks to all fore your feedbacks and research and Tonys ''impressive'' respons to all, that i'm definitely NOT gonna buy the Bluesound Node, mostly thanks (99.9%) to Tony.
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Do not have analog cables to test.
Understand 50ms requirement for groupping. But it would be great if lower delays would be available when groups are not in use.
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What is the delay when AV sync is off? Feels that it much more than 50ms. If thay would be close to 0ms, I could adjust rest from speaker end.
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Hello!
I just bought a brand new Powernode 2i and having annoying lip-sync issue as well while using it with my LG tv.
I've tried analogue / ARC inputs, the issue exist on both.
Can you reveal Bluesound's plans and timings on this issue please?
I hope you will update the firmware to allow us to use less than 50 ms lip-sync delay while not using groups.
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Evgenii,
I have exact same issue with Node 2i.
my support request has been without any action/response for 10days.Have a feeling that they don't take this seriously and have no plans to fix it
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Juha,
I hope that's just a misunderstanding and guys will pay some attention to TV users as long as their products have HDMI onboard and is clearly intended for use with TVs.
I tested "A/V mode" yesterday, delay became even worse with A/V mode disabled.
Juha, let's do this in a proper way: follow this link, comment and upvote it, please https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360047214174-Lip-sync-issue-request-for-low-delay-mode-to-watch-videos-
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Juha, wow!
That's really impressive, thanks for exact numbers.
Yeah, that is really looks like disabling A/V mode sets delay to 250ms – 250 000 microseconds.
I will take a look at the logs as well, looks like we can get some more interesting info out of it.
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have same issue with Bluetooth. Very annoying while watching videos.
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Hello, Tony!
A lot of time have passed and I’m coming back with exact same questions.
Do you plan to do something about it? Is there are any options to get rid of delay? Maybe some hidden engineering menu, or something like that?
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Issue is still here with us, it will not disappear magically
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Hello, guys!
Any news on the issue?
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I'd like to add my voice of support to this issue. We're experiencing lag that actually feels more prevalent than when I first set up my PowerNode 2i. This is the centerpiece of my living room sound system for both music and tv/movies, and I have no plans to add any groups. I would greatly appreciate a low latency mode.
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+1 on enhancing node 2i/powernode s.t. delay is < 50ms for optical input. I also am experiencing this problem with delay.
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I have Bluesound system comprising Powernod 2, Node 2i and Pulse flex 2i. They are non-grouped and thus act as solitary speakers. On all these systems I experience a terrible audio latency when connected by Bluetooth to an iMac. For Powernod 2 it is in the range of 350-400 ms. For Node 2i it is in the range of 300-350 ms. It is just the same audio latency if I uses my iPhone 12 as a Bluetooth audio source.
As Bluesound claims there will always be a slight delay with Bluetooth. But what do you mean by "slight"? According to the Bluetooth system there can be an audio latency of 35 ms. Most Bluetooth speaker (ie Bose sound link) have an audio latency of about 50 ms but never more than 100 ms. So, what are Bluesound doing to provide a delay of up to 400 ms? This is not a delay. This is not even an echo. This is two separate occasions. One occasion when you see the lips moving on a TV or a computer. And another occasion when you hear the sound in the Bluesound system.
Such a delay is absolutely unacceptable. What is the purpose with the Bluetooth facility on Bluesound? What version of Bluetooth is used in Bluesound equipments? And finally - what are you going to do about it.
I sent this message 6 days ago in another thread but is has not yet been commented.
The other day I thought perhaps it could be better to use the line input on the Powernod. So I bought a Bluesound transmitter/receiver and connected it to the line input. And much to my surprise the audio latency decrease to about 100 ms. This is not good but much more bearable than the direct Bluetooth connection. So, once again, Bluesound Company, what is your explanation?
JS
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I'm also experiencing an annoying audio sync issue between TV and Node 2i using Bluetooth ;/
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Jan Smede, Bluesound support is the worst support I've seen in my entire life
They're ignoring this problem for years now and will ignore you from now on
You can contact their public relations department on Facebook, they will not ignore you and they will try to help at least somehow
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If it works on the powernode (node2i with amplifier), why lip-sync is not working on the node2i on optical? BT i can uderstand, but optical?
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Ioan Cristian in my case all is working fine on optical input, look at the screenshot (node 2i):
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