Subwoofer level from Bluos app (NAD C658)

Answered

Comments

24 comments

  • Official comment
    Avatar
    Tony W. - Product Support Manager

    If you have DIRAC on - you shouldn't be adjusting the sub-volume separately.

    Consider a different DIRAC slot and curve for those extra bass requirements.

    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    Thanks.

    I do use Dirac, but depending on the type of music played and the mastering of each specific track/album, sometimes there is a need to change the level of the lower end. This is a common practice in any AV receiver. If Dirac live can access the internal subwoofer levels. then it also should be theoretically possible to do so using the bluos app. 

     

    Moreover, sometimes I prefer to turn Dirac off for some type of music, in that case, the subwoofer level becomes almost inaudible...

     

     

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Josh Bauch

    Adding a vote to this request as the sub out signal on the C658 is very weak, we've seen this across multiple owners of the device and a variety of subs.  In some cases the signal is so weak it won't kick a sub out of standby unless you turn the volume up well beyond the intended listening level.

    I've also contacted NAD in June with the same request but don't know if that helped at all, so figured I'd add on here.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    My svs SB2000 gain is at 2 o'clock, Dirac is on and using a bass boosted curve and still I cannot feel the impact of the subwoofers! With my Denon avr I must torn the gain to 10 o'clock and still bass is very load.. Something is very wrong with the C658 design.

    Dirac only balance the EQ not the levels. I'm considering returning the C658 and getting a minidsp solution instead. This is very disappointing. I got the c658 to improve my music listening experience but ended up preferring my Denon avr over the NAD due to the lack of bass from the subs...

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Tony W. - Product Support Manager

    Hi All

    This is really an issue for NAD Support as this is hardware-related - support@nadelectronics.com - that being said, our good friends (further) down the hall at PSB Speakers suggest there is or may be a sensitivity setting on your subwoofer settings. Check your subwoofer documentation for further information.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    Thanks for the info. Yes, there is a gain setting on every powered subwoofer but in order to reach a decent level with the C658 this gain must be cranked to the max position. Since the same subwoofer is also used in a home theater environment by connecting its second input to the LFE output of an AV receiver, the max gain trick cannot be used because it makes the subwoofer too loud for any AV setup.

     

    I'm no expert, but I really doubt that it is a hardware limitation. This is because during the early process of Dirac live calibration, the user can change the level/sensitivity for each channel independently in real-time. If the Dirac app can access independent level settings, then it should be possible for the bluos software to do the same. But of course, NAD developers must allow this first.

     

    I think the biggest problem is that the bluos version is generic to many hardware platforms.  I'm not sure whether different development teams are used per device, or is the bluos developed by the same team for all devices. 

     

    I've contacted Dirac Live support and they told me to connect the subwoofers to the main speakers pre-outs instead of the dedicated subwoofer outputs as a temporary solution until the full bass management version of Dirac is available. This is the reply I got today:

    ---------------------------
    Flavio Fellah commented:

    Hello,
    I suggest checking the configuration in your NAD C658.
    Until the new Dirac Bass Management will be available the subwoofer/s should be connected, measured and corrected as if it was another driver of your main speakers.
    Dirac will adjust the gain and delay of those low frequencies that are output by the sub/s in order to align them with the main speakers.
    In other words currently, the crossovering of the subwoofers should be downstream of Dirac Live.

    Best regards

    --------------------------

    So it looks like Dirac Live team is aware of this NAD/bluos related limitation. I've also check the user manual of the minidsp SHD, which is a very similar product to the NAD C658, and they do offer independent subwoofer/speaker level and distance settings.

     

    What good is a subwoofer output if you cannot control the subwoofer levels? What if you are using a separated power and a passive subwoofer with no gain/sensitivity settings? While the C658 is very well built, in terms of its software and user UI, it feels more like an early beta product.

     

    Not only no option to control speaker/sub levels, there isn't an option to adjust the sensitivity levels of each source input. This is a basic feature you find in any other preamplifier or integrated amp or receiver.

     

     

    I did contact NAD and got a kind of a dogging response that they will bring this to their developer's attention but they are not sure if this can be implemented due to possible hardware limitations. 

     

    BTW, connecting the subwoofers to the second speakers' pre-out drastically increase the subwoofer levels to a satisfactory solution, but this way I cannot limit the main speakers' lower end to prevent them from damage.

     

     This is really frustrating. Also, an expensive high-end device like the C658 should have its dedicated support forum, and not a very generic bluos only related forum. 

     

    There is am owners thread at AVS forum, but unfortunately, neither bluos nor NAD support people are taking any participant in it:

     

    https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3038854-official-nad-c658-thread.html

     

    The issue of no source input levels nor subwoofer level adjustments was brought up there by many users...

     

    I can't even understand what good is access to crossover settings in the blueos app? These settings belong in the device's settings from the main unit. The only time you need to change crossover settings is when you replace your speakers. What is really needed in the bluos setting UI is a subwoofer level adjustments. Also, an auto loudness would be very much appreciated to balance the listening experience at any volume level...   

     

     

     

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Doug Anderson

    I'll add to the request for subwoofer level controls.  I'm LIVID that when I use the Dirac Filters, there's virtually no bass coming from my subs.  They were functioning when doing the room calibration, so why not working when the Dirac filter is applied for regular use???  There has to be a software solution.   I upgraded from a Node 2 to the C658 for the sole purpose of having Dirac integrated rather than using a separate miniDSP device (which worked great).

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Josh Bauch

    Rumor has it there are a batch of C658 with bad boards, main issue being low sub output while some including me also experience phantom scratching and popping noises while Dirac is enabled. I'm on my second unit and it also has worthless sub out, which is frustrating but at this point I've worked around it and prefer my sub hooked up via RCA pre outs anyway... still doesn't invalidate the need for variable sun control and/or a targeted recall of the bad units.

    1
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Doug Anderson

    @Josh     I ended up doing the same as you - added my subs to the RCA pre-outs. After buying the full Dirac license and fooling around with filters for HOURS, I finally have my system sounding the way I want. I think it would have been a much simpler process if I could control the sub levels thru BluOS.

     

    It's very annoying that this costly unit doesn't work as it should. I'm still convinced there has to be a BluOS software solution bcuz, again, the subs responded when doing the Dirac room calibration sweeps. So I don't think my unit has a bad board. But then again I'm no electronics wizard. Just a regular dude that loves music. I could be totally wrong.  

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Josh Bauch

    Doug - the frustrating part is that NAD support has confirmed they're aware of the sub out issues, as well as the popping/crackling noises which some users face... but continue to say they can't define if it is a hardware or software issue, so many C658 owners like us are stuck with defective devices (I've even replaced mine once through the retailer).  I just hope that the solution is determined before the warranty runs out.

    1
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    My unit was replaced with a brand new one. I'm still having the same subwoofer issues! Very low levels, and scratching noises when line 1 is selected, as well as random thuds... This is very disappointing... Are there any plans to fix this? Is it a hardware bug or a firmware bug? For now, I've returned my unit to back to the shop. If I won't hear from NAD support assuring me that this issue will be resolved in the upcoming update, I'm afraid I'll have to look for another solution... 

     

     

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Doug Anderson

    I guess I should count myself as lucky. So far (3 days in) I don't have issues with scratching noises & thuds. I've sent a note to NAD support to get their official take on it.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    @ Doug Anderson, can you PLEASE perform the following test:

     


    1. Enable subwoofer output from setup.
    2. Set the crossover to any desired value
    3. Select Line 1, but DO NOT connect an RCA cable to Line 1
    4. Connect a subwoofer to the subwoofer outputs on the C658. or connect any other amplifier with speakers to the subwoofer outputs, such as headphones amp
    5. Listen while the master volume is above -20db. Make sure the subwoofer gain is high enough
    6. Can you hear the constant scratching noises?
    7. Connect an RCA cable to Line 1. It should drastically attenuate the noise.


    Can you hear the noise? If you connect RCA cables to the Line 1 input, the noise fades away and may be replaced by random thuds...

    Please test and report back.

     

    I have a feeling this bug involves all units. The random thuds may be limited to some subwoofers like SVS.

     

    Thanks

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Doug Anderson

    Eli Barbie    I finally had time to try your test. And yes, I did hear the noises.   If a firmware upgrade will fix the problem I hope it will soon be released.  If it is a hardware problem, NAD should issue a recall and replace defective units.  PRONTO!!

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    NAD support had told me that it is a FW related bug. But they cannot give a timeline for the fix. The upcoming FW update is due in March, but most likely won't resolve the issue. It may take 6 more months for them to release a fix. I have a feeling it isn't an easy one. Dirac live support are also aware of the issue, and most likely it is the reason for the Bass management upgrade delay.  Dirac support advised me to connect the subwoofers to the RCA pre-outs of the main speakers instead of the dedicated subwoofer outputs.

     

     

     

     

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Josh Bauch

    Hooking up subs via RCA will address the low sub signal issue, but won't do anything about the random pops/clicks when Dirac is enabled.  Support told me to just disable the Dirac filters until the FW fix is released.

    Not being able to use the sub outs nor Dirac filters makes it hard to justify the C658 over other competitors in the same range.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Antonio

    same problem here

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Mrlidman

    Hi. Im very disappointed about the subwoofer out put. NAD support told me that it is 3db lower and if you use both outputs i will be 6db lower. Why do let the owner make that choice. If i connect my sub it hardly makes sound with maximum gain.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Eli Barbie

    @Mrlidman

    Yes, the subwoofer output is virtually useless. It is much lower than 6db. I've tested it using an oscilloscope and it is around 10db lower when two subs are used. However, I found a workaround: I got a Minidsp 2X4HD which I chained between the subwoofer outputs and my two subs, set its gain to +8db, and forgot about it. Now subwoofer output is very loud and clear post Dirac Live calibration. I can even control the subwoofer level via the Minidsp IR remote using my Harmony hub. The C658 lacks subwoofer level adjustment. A terrible design choice by NAD. I hope this is changed once Dirac Bass control upgrade is out...

     

     

     

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Samad

    Hi All

    I am recent owner of a NAD M10 and am also experiencing problems with low subwoofer output. I have to JL audio subs and am struggling with even getting them to auto power without having to crank the main volume up. Is there any resolution on this from NAD? 

    thanks

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Sam R.

    Hello Samysound, 

    I see you've got a request open with the support crew -- they'll reach out and can work with you to investigate the situation with your M10 further.

    Regards,
    Sam R.

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Doug Anderson

    Is there any update regarding the flaw with subwoofer outs on the NAD C658 (the genesis of this thread)? 

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Avatar
    Samad

    Sam R., Tony W

     

    thanks for the reply. I have not heard back from NAD support as of yet but look forward to their reply.

     

    On another note, are the two subwoofer outputs on the NAD M10 both summed mono or seperate left and right channel? control via BLUOS only allows one to select 1 vs two subs but not assign left or right channel. Also, when / if dirac bass control is implemented, will the two subs be treated independently (i.e. 4 separate dirac channels). Supplied information from NAD is vague in this regard and response to questions from NAD are sparse. I am considering returning my unit as a result.

    thanks!

    0
    Comment actions Permalink
  • Due to the pandemic, we have been backlogged in response times as everyone is home playing with the gear enjoying music while in isolation. We have the request and thank you for your patience and we will reach out to you as quickly as possible.

     

    Tony

    Anthony Williamson
    Product Support Manager – Lenbrook International
    Bluesound|NAD Electronics|PSB Speakers
    support@bluesound.com

    0
    Comment actions Permalink

Please sign in to leave a comment.