Add Chromecast support to Bluesound product line

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187 comments

  • Stefan Mehre

    I only can agree to the mentioned points in the last answeres. 


    @Andrew H.

    I can imagine Google isn‘t one of the best or better easiest partners for such integrations. But this missing feature makes it pretty hard placing the BluOS plattform in many projects. We need to make really shure there is no wish or even need to have the Chromecast support in the system. And hopefully this will not in the next years.

    It‘s really honorable that you want the plattform backward compatible, but that‘s also not the case with AirPlay and Gen 2i got it. If the new players are able to handle it and upcoming NAD will, DO IT :)

    The tech world spins faster and faster and yes it‘s not great if any of us needs to upgrade the hardware to get this feature, but it‘s better than having no option if we wanna stay with BluOS. 

    And again most of us are not asking for absolut integration into the Google Home world. For most of us the only missing feature is sending audio to the players directly from Android systems. 

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  • Bluey

    "To also help, this isn't licensing, Google costs (although it is a factor), but rather more than the time and labour to support GC4A would currently only be possible on the new products, and I'm opposed to limiting it to be that way.  I'd rather wait for Google to offer something for everyone, which they have said they hope to be able to do."

    Interesting - this seems to be the crux of it.

    Bluesound don't want to upset owners of legacy products?

    I think there would be thousands happy if the recently released NODE had featured Chromecast and if Bluesound said Chromecast was only available for NODE due to CPU/memory requirements, I don't think it would be a problem.

    This is actually what I was hoping for !

    Look at what KEF did with LS50W2 - they added software features not possible to add to then Gen1 LS50W - including Chromecast built-in. Nobody complained !

    But alas, the wait continues lol.

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  • Shalako Snell

    I can understand if Google has something tangible in the works, that is available like a beta dev kit for developers, but if not you could be waiting for something they may never happen.
    Google saying they want to offer something is not even close to it being a reality... Google saying we are currently working on something is also not even close to it being a reality (projects get cancelled). Google saying we have a release date means that there is hope. Meanwhile more Chromecast devices come on the market with the existing technology.

    When I said that I expected it to be retrofitted to my existing Powernode, I meant as software, I didn't mean that if a hardware upgrade was required, I would still expect it.

    Think about bluetooth or hdmi, you support those, but if a new bluetooth technology was released and it required a new radio, would you not support it in your new products because the old product still used outdated technology?

    And Apple Airplay 2 requires a hardware upgrade as I believe it requires an additional radio band (not familiar with the actual implementation), point being Apple Airplay 1 products don't automatically get the upgrade, users have to by hardware that is capable.

    I mean the Powernode was updated from 60w to 80w and I can't imagine anyone expected you to change their existing Powernode 2i to match it.

    So when you talk to Google, try and get an idea of where they are in the product life cycle and whether or not Chromecast built in as a software only option, is an actual reality or just someones passing idea that has no real momentum behind it.

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  • Willem Villet

    Andrew H

    It is very striking to me that you expected to be flamed, but instead your comment resulted in multiple posts from users that care about your product and would really like to see a feature added. I can assure you that even though i currently recommend Naim Uniti and Cambridge streamers to those seeking my advice, I actually would far rather recommend Bluesound because I think with the Node, Powernode and Nad M10 you can buy exactly what you need to complement your system(s). But I honestly cannot recommend a system that is not Chromecast compatible.

    I think the concept of a standalone Node-like device that can receive Chromecast is a really great idea. I can envision this device as receiving the Chromecast stream and then transmitting/streaming it to Bluesound devices in much the way any streaming service does. You would simply have to set up a Music Service to receive the signal.

    I also agree with previous comments:

    1. That your very important post is going to get lost. Is there any way that the comment at the top of the post (currently from Tony) can be updated with actual information on a regular interval?

    2. That waiting for Google to come up with a solution seems very odd as they have no incentive as a major corporation to see Bluesound succeed. Clearly Bluesound's continued success and growth in the market is far more important to you.

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  • Andrew H.

    Lots of good feedback, and this particular forum doesn't allow me to specifically reply to messages, so I'll sum up here.  Internally we are developing something to allow people to add GC4A to BluOS, but it won't be a Google integration persay and with the current worldwide parts issue it won't be this year sadly, but the reality of the supply chain right now makes it this way.  

    Google actually does need companies like Lenbrook to succeed and support them, while we are small they need adopters and supports of their audio platform in order to keep their places in the overall home ecosystem intact.  This isn't an easy thing to accomplish when more and more companies now see the value of it.

    Google has been continuously losing share in this overall space. The growth of "end points" and how much easier they are to adopt is eroding their initial leadership.

    There is always a question of "how many will use it" and for us the question is always "how will they use it" as well from a UI experience standpoint.  As BluOS is a UI based experience which is different from the AMP1/C338 it is important that the ability to access and use it is also good.  

    One question I have for you.  This is a lot about the overall of GC4A, and I'd like to know which of the services you specifically use on a regular basis? 

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  • reneve

    Hi Andrew, to answer your question -- we use "Google Home" in 3 houses with as many devices as possible, from Nest, to lights, to curtains an everything. For G4CA, I have the Kef LS50WII I stream to (although I have a node also connected there) and for my TV room I have a sonny surround receiver I stream to. Where I have Powernodes in the house I have an older generation Chromecast Audio attached to use streaming.

    Was wondering what you are referring to in terms of "losing marketshare" ? My understanding in the home automation area in general is that Google is catching up with Amazon in marketshare, but both are still 5-10 times bigger than Apple? Or are you referring to something else?

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  • Willem Villet

    Andrew H

    Let me first say thank you for engaging. This is truly welcome and very much appreciated. If I understand your question correctly, you would like to know how I use GC4A on a regular basis.

    As background my wife and I maintain residences in more than one country. In each residence we have more than one audio system with the systems ranging from modest ( integrated amp plus speakers) to more substantial. The audio systems are in our living rooms, dedicated listening rooms, kitchens and bed rooms.

    We have android phones and android tablets as well as Windows laptops. In one home we also have an iPad but we are heavily invested in android and Windows.

    We have a large collection of lossless ripped music as either uncompressed flac or wav files on a NAS in each home and we frequently add to this collection.

    We are subscribers to Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon HD Music, Spotify, Mugs.net, Neil Young Archives, Sirius XM and JioSaavn. Although we have a lifelong Roon subscription and use Rasberry Pis and other endpoints when we listen to our own collection of music, we explore lots of music on the internet using either our android phones or tablets, or our windows devices, and when we find something either of us likes, we like the ability to listen to the music on one (or more) of our audio systems. Chromecast audio is ideal for this use. In the kitchen we explore recipes via mainly Youtube, and when we are preparing food it is great to have the audio available on the kitchen systems.

    We do not like using bluetooth for streaming the audio because of both distance limitations and the need to keep the source device connected to the streaming source. Chromecast is great because it is independent of keeping the source device connected. And we mostly do not care about the video if it is a recipe or if the music found was via Youtube.

    What is important to us though is the ability to select more than one playback device. So if I am in the primary listening room and find something that my wife would also like I want to be able to play that audio both in the area I am in and the area she is in.

    When we sit down to really listen to music our source is often vinyl. It would be great to be able to play vinyl recordings with the full Bluesound ease of multi room use.

    You also asked how often we use GC4A functionality; multiple times each and every day.

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  • Shalako Snell

    1. For me I think the most telling example I can give is that within hours of getting the Powernode, I tried to cast from YouTube. When I wasn't able to, I then switched to my MacBook (Airplay). 

    This is about the source, the only other way I know of to get wireless sound out of native Android, is to use bluetooth, so sources (such as YouTube) that are not part of Bluesound integration end up being awkward to work with. And you can't say that YouTube is going away anytime soon.

    2. Grouping speakers, currently there isn't a decent portable Bluesound option, and I'm leaning towards the Harmon Kardon Citation 200 portable speaker, so there are two ways to solve this... one is to have Bluesound integrate with chromecast, the other is for Bluesound to offer a descent portable speaker (Sonos Move or Harmon Kardon Citation 200).

    Why would I want a portable speaker to be integrated into wireless? Well the portable speaker is also the kitchen speaker and being able to pick it up and walk around the house with it is great, sometimes it's the immediacy that is the benefit, like if I want to make a cup of tea and then just sit outside for a few minutes while I drink it in the morning sun, I don't want to fire up the full audio system, I just want to grab the portable. I also use it when playing with the dog in the back yard, again I don't want to fire up a full audio system for just a few minutes of outside activity.

    Flexibility is a key component of the overall system, while in some places in the house I'm happy to be hardwired (the living room and the 2 home offices, maybe some outdoor speakers once we are in the new house), I also want a few speakers that I can move around as needs change, this is where I would invest in some Pulse speakers (swapping out my current Sonos Fives, which, just between you and me, I regret buying). 

    Why is that even relevant? Because it's part of the bigger picture, again this is an eco-system, if Chromecast isn't part of it, then I end up going to the competition.

    Also having Bluesound be part of a larger eco-system of speakers/hardware has the potential to open your products up to more customers. One of the things I heavily considered was the current set of products on the market that offered Chromecast built in, the more products that have it, the greater the chance I would have gone down that route. An example of how this might benefit you is a household that has an existing Chromecast eco-system may not consider Bluesound as a viable option, but with the addition of Chromecast you would have a place for the audiophile living in a house of non-audiophiles. Some of the other posts in this thread have already given real world examples of how this is true.

    3. I have Philips Hue lighting which integrates with assistant, not specifically GC4A but part of an eco-system. This is a nice to have for me, but Home Automation is a growing market and it's becoming more accessible everyday.

    4. Since Chromecast isn't available on Bluesound products, I don't know what other features I'd use, maybe there are features I'm not able to discover.

    5. My Sony TV has Chromecast (not that I use it on the TV much but it's part of the ecosystem)

    6. My Sony Amp has Chromecast. I use Chromcast on it, but I want to replace it with another BluOs amp (probably another Powernode, but maybe something else).

    Another clue, is the number of posts and votes on this topic, it seems like it's the most requested feature.

    Notes:

    While I like the Sonos Move design and its ease of portability, I hate the sound profile. From a design perspective it's very well thought out. I know it doesn't have Chromecast, but it's great example of a portable speaker.

    Harmon Kardon Citation 200 does have Chromecast and it sounds amazing (from the short demo I've had), the design isn't as nice, the handle is ok but not fantastic.

    What surprises me here is that somehow Apple managed to get it right and Google managed to get it wrong, normally its Apple that is difficult to work with, endless hoops, unforgiving and rigid development frameworks.

    I don't want you to invest in something that isn't going to benefit the products, since anyone who buys Bluesound is making an investment in the company, so we want it to thrive, and I hope that Google does come to the party, in the meantime I'd be trying to get more solid answers out of Google about their plans for GC4A and seriously considering if waiting will benefit you or harm you as the competition brings new Chromecast Built in offerings to market.

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  • Joe Syers

    Hi Andrew H,

    I applaud and appreciate your interaction on this.  It’s clearly a subject which will not go away and deserves your attention.  I’m a dealer who both sells and owns streaming audio equipment from several brands, so I have a fair bit of relevant experience.

    I also don’t get the point about Google losing share in this space.  They have a function (I’ll call it Casting since GC4A does not mean anything to me or most people and even Google often seem incapable of knowing what the difference is between Googlecast and Chromecast) which is seemingly available in more and more apps.  That function has specific advantages over the other competing technologies, namely Airplay and Bluetooth. Nothing else is comparable, as they are all proprietary or restricted.  They are building it out.  In Google Home you can now add in additional zones for a multiroom experience and adjust the relative volumes.  I am still no fan of Google Home, but it works about as well as Airplay now for multiroom, and of course with Casting, your phone is just a remote, not a streaming component.  Even our most ardent Apple IOS users understand this key difference.

    While Bluesound has a nice app which works fine with the integrated services and internal sources, most users want the easiest ability to reliably play content regardless of the source.  They don’t want to have to log in to those services in another place, and often that may not be an option at all.  Let’s take the example of Soundcloud.  The only way I can play that from my Android phone to Bluesound is via Bluetooth.  I can’t stand the numerous pain points with Bluetooth, so I don’t, which is kind of sad.  Instead, I wait until I’m in a non-Bluesound room to enjoy content from Soundcloud.

    I don’t think this is about specific music services for most people here (if that’s what you meant – I’m not aware of GC4A being broken down into different services if that’s what you meant).  There are too many music services for any manufacturer to ever get on top of integrating all of them well, so the selection you support is always going to be a judgement call which will not suit all your users.  Rather, it’s about the simple ability to use that Cast symbol wherever they see it, on whichever device they are using at that time.  It may take a little while to connect sometimes, it may lag and it may even break from time to time, when Bonjour fails or someone’s server craps out.  But given a viable network, most of the time it works and it’s near instant and hassle-free.  As others have pointed out, you already support Airplay 2 on specific hardware, and users won’t be in your UI once they are Airplaying, or if they use Bluetooth or playing a vinyl album on their connected turntable for that matter.  The frailties of all those technologies are accepted.

    I don’t get the comment about Google wanting a full Google Assistant integration to allow Casting to be supported.  There are loads of devices which support Casting but have no mics and no Google Assistant support at all.  Are you saying that they are running it in the background just to get Casting to work?  That would seem odd, but if it were the case, I can understand why you would not like it on principle as BluOS seems to be light and agile in software terms and this may rub against that.

    Yet BluOS surely exists to help sell audio equipment through functionality.  The addition of more functionality, effectively outside of BluOS for the user, is not a barrier to selling more audio equipment.  Casting is the big miss on your platform.  I strongly feel that the approach should be to add it to the products which can support it.  It isn’t going away, and you can’t wait for Google to make a “lite” version of your dreams – that may never happen.  Drop the principle and listen to your customers.  They are mature, intelligent and able to understand compromises for what they are. Overall, you would be providing a significant benefit for many of them, including some who don’t know what they are missing yet.  For me personally, you’ll make my Bluesound rooms the equal of my xxxxxxxx rooms.  Perhaps more importantly for you, you'll stop me from having to point out that it is a notable difference when proposing two alternative audio system brands to customers.

    All the best,

    Joe

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  • Willem Villet

    Joe Syers

    Thank you. You have expressed my exact sentiments very eloquently and clearly. And I think dealers have a lot more ability to influence what Bluesound will ultimately do than individual consumers. I am now in the habit of making sure each time I visit a Bluesound dealer to tell them that I have bought Bluesound equipment in the past but I am now purchasing alternate equipment as Bluesound, by not incorporating Chromecast, is not meeting what I as a consumer need. I would like to use Bluesound though because I think the combination of Node, Powernode, and the two NAD streamers fit into my system requirements well at various expenditure levels.

     

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  • Randle

    Regarding services: I use YouTube Music Premium for finding new music and background listening. I got rid of Spotify Premium as I didn't want ads on YouTube and didn't want to pay for both. I also use SoundCloud and regularly cast Podcasts from various apps.

    For me the Node N130 performs two functions 90% of the time: (1) Pre-amp for Audio to my Active Speakers and (2) end point for audio playback. 10% of the time I'll use it to access my lossless music on my network drive. 

    I've worked my way around the lack of GC4A support, but it would be much easier if I didn't have to use the Chromecast Audio. We don't need an interface to control it - just the ability to send something to it.

    I think a useful comment is that Google has a mixed relationship with audio only streams. Try casting the audio from YouTube to a speaker. It doesn't work. You need to open the Google Home app, find the speaker and then cast your Android phone audio to the device. This is just like casting the screen and/or using bluetooth (with the range limited to Wifi which is better than Bluetooth) . I'm not sure if AirPlay has similar quirks.

    Side note: this is a useful app for casting desktop audio on Windows to single/multiple Google Cast speakers Release Chromecast Desktop Audio Streamer Version 3.8 (github.com)

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  • Bluey

    "This is a lot about the overall of GC4A, and I'd like to know which of the services you specifically use on a regular basis?"

    Andrew H

    All the music streaming service apps on Android support casting to Chomecast Built-in devices

    This means with an Android phone or tablet, I don't need to use 3rd part apps - I can use the official app and cast direct to Chromecast Built-in devices - like Cambridge CXN V2, KEF LS50W2 speakers, Naim streaming DACs etc.

    For example the Qobuz app is improving a lot - with more features coming confirmed by Qobuz. I don't want to go through 3rd party apps like Roon or BluOS.

    Same goes for all the music streaming service apps from an Android device - Apple Music, Amazon Music HD,  Soundcloud, everything. All those apps on Android support casting to Chromcast buil-tin

     

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  • Bluey

    The Tidal UI on BluOS is garbage compared to the official Tidal app - now with Tidal Connect, we can bypass BluOS Tidal app. Especially when it comes to features like recommendations and track radio mode and the 'feed' feature to update you of new music from favourite artists.

    The official apps get faster and better updates than 3rd party apps, like BluOS offers.

    Chromecast allows the same for from all the official streaming service apps, from an Android phone/tablet.

    For this reason, the Holy Grail for any new streaming devices is:

    - Spotify Connect

    - Tidal Connect

    - Roon Ready

    - Airplay 2

    - Chromecast Built-in

    KEF, Cambridge, Naim all have products supporting all the above.

     

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  • reneve

    Just to echo a few things: nowadays if I can cast directly bypassing the (power-)node I cast directly to the endpoints LS50W, surround amp as I am primarily looking for endpoints to cast to. And, as also mentioend above, most apps support direct casting to chromecast endpoints. Out of the remaining time when I do use the node, 90% of the time it's also just a (pre-) amp endpoint before the speakers, sometimes accessing node still via Chromecast Audio. I mainly use the UI for grouping speakers and every now and then to play lossless music stored locally.

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  • Alex C.

    @Bluey You forgot the UPnP from the list of must haves. If not the full UPnP implementation, then at least the ability to play to the device as endpoint.

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  • Andrew H.

    I've been reading through all of your messages and I'm listening carefully to each of you.  I understand your passion for exploration and enjoyment of music.  To be clear my comments are specific to GC4A (google cast 4 audio) and not home integration, nor cross platform integration, not youtube streaming and not chromecast.  

    I also want to thank each of you for your detailed comments on how you use the products.  GC4A falls into an area we don't get as much feedback on, so these messages and the detail is helpful.  I do agree with all of you that Bluetooth isn't the best solution for streaming playback, and we also see the change that the endpoints have made to the overall mix of content usage.  

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  • Joe Syers

    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks again for listening.

    I guess you're talking about what's detailed in "Google Cast for Audio Multi-room Certification Test Specification Version 6.3" from 13th April 2021.  I note they changed the name back to GC4A (now standing for Google Cast for Audio) at that time.  Combined with the previous name change from GC4A (at that time standing for Google Chromecast for Audio) to CCBI4A (ChromeCast Built-In for Audio) for 4 years, this somewhat explains the chronic confusion caused by audio system manufacturers having "Chromecast Built-in" as a feature when elsewhere the user is told they are Google Casting.  Frankly, nobody outside the industry and the odd techie cares a jot about the distinction.  They simply want to be able to tap that (now very common, bordering on ubiquitous) Cast symbol and get the best outcome; namely as many of their devices as possible show up so they can decide where to "cast" the audio to.  Then, they should be able to use Google Home to expand to a C4A Group, aka multiroom in common parlance.  I cannot see anywhere in the 6.3 document which mentions the need for Google Assistant support.  There are low-cost devices available which have “Chromecast Built-in” with not a mic or mention of Google Assistant in sight.  Maybe there's something I'm missing and you or someone else on the forum can enlighten me.

    Best,

    Joe

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  • Willem Villet

    Joe Syers and Andrew H 

    I am in complete agreement with the comment made by Joe.

    All I want to be able to do is cast the audio stream from Android devices. It does not matter whether the source is originally an audio only recording or a youtube video. 

    So Andrew H I really do not understand your eliminating youtube. A lot of the audio I listen to has youtube videos as origin, but I do not care about the video. I think all the commenters on this post understand that Bluesound equipment was not designed for video. Nobody has asked for it. All we want is to be able to click that button on our android devices and have that audio be available at all our Bluesound devices

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  • Bluey

    I cannot see anywhere in the 6.3 document which mentions the need for Google Assistant support.  There are low-cost devices available which have “Chromecast Built-in” with not a mic or mention of Google Assistant in sight.  Maybe there's something I'm missing and you or someone else on the forum can enlighten me.

    Joe, while not low cost, I mentioned a few times Cambridge Audio CXN V2 has long had Chromecast Built-in support and does not feature a microphone and no need for Google Assistant.

    KEF LS50W2 speakers and Naim streamers also.

    Regarding Andrew H comment about not supporting "Chromecast", the first google result I get is:

    https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/audio/

    So maybe the underlying tech is called GC4A but the feature is still called Chromecast Built-in , as per Google's own site and all the manufacturers web pages.

     

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  • Bluey

    @alex c - I deliberately left off UPnP as we are talking about casting from all music streaming service apps, to end point devices. No need for UPnP if Chromecast built-in came to BluOS.

    There might be other use for UPnP but it's not related to streaming service apps, so not in context here.

    I don't want to confuse multiple topics in this one Chromecast thread.

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  • Shalako Snell

    So after looking around a bit to understand the difference between ChromeCast and GC4A, I realise that Google doesn't actually provide an avenue to just get audio from the device (like Airplay does), or just get audio from YouTube.

    I guess the only real benefit in this case is that GC4A allows speakers from different companies to be grouped.

    I didn't realise that googles implementation of audio was siloed like this.

    To sum up, Google's approach to handling audio is a mess and they have no consistent way for a consumer to do this... I now feel sorry for any developer or user who wants to simply have audio work.... Seems simple enough a request you'd think.

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  • Bluey

    @Shalako Snell : "I now feel sorry for any developer or user who wants to simply have audio work...."

    It's getting repetitive now but KEF, Cambridge Audio, Naim, Harman have figured how to have audio work...

    We are not asking Bluesound to break new ground here...

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  • Alex C.

    @Bluey while it's true that streaming services don't use UPnP, streaming apps do use it. Other audiophile apps rely on it, like Audirvana, JRiver, etc. This is well aligned with the trend @Andrew H. mentions, the rise of the endpoints.

    It would be more useful to rip out the deeper integration of the streaming services and use the freed  resources to support more protocols. Supporting all 4 streaming protocols, AirPlay, GC4A, UPnP and Roon RAAT, would be awesome.

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  • Shalako Snell

    @Bluey

    While it's true they have implement the technology, that doesn't mean it works the way I was intending to use it.

    My use case may not be supported by Google (or it is but I've not seen it happen yet), and there may not be a lot that Bluesound can do to fix that.

    So yes they may be able to integrate GC4A but that does not mean I will be able to play YouTube on my phone and have the audio come through the amp.... Now if anyone has actually achieved this at home with existing GC4A setup, I'm keen to hear about it.

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  • Alex C.

    @Shalako don't think that possible. It's all or nothing when it comes to casting. In that specific use case you're better off casting to a TV and outputting sound trough HDMI ARC or TOSLINK to the Bluesound device.

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  • Bluey

    @alex c. - noted but maybe keep UPnP discussion to a seperate dedicated thread.

    Let's keep this thread for Chromecast / GC4A

     

     

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  • Andrew H.

    Umm, just keep in mind that we already have full integrations for Airplay (work directly with Cupertino), RAAT for Roon (lots of support from various folks), Tidal Connect (have a shared Slack channel) and Spotify (direct team member). In each of these cases our partners have worked with us to come up with a solution we can implement and in all cases we have helped improve their overall products.

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  • Willem Villet

    @Shalako snell

    When Google first introduced Chromecast they sold an audio only dongle. In the first few years you could actually stream just the audio component of a youtube video to the device. That functionality disappeared in 2019 I believe and to date I have not been able to find a way of just streaming the audio from youtube to the audio only Chromecast dongle. I have a workaround with an hdmi switchbox which has an optical audio digital output, but this is not ideal

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  • Bluey

    Here is a hardware module used by the competitors that support everything BluOS does PLUS Chromecast Built-in

    This company is part owned by Google itself

    Note their tech literature is called 'Chromecast Built-in'.

    It supports Airplay 2 and other stuff too.

    Obviously legacy products couldn't get this since it is hardware. No different to Bluesound legacy products not being able to get Airplay 2 support when that was released...

    So I don't understand the position of Bluesound about legacy products missing out. I didn't see such a comment when Airplay 2 came out. People will pay for new hardware if new protocols need new hardware.

    I fully expected a new product in 2021 (like the new NODE) to come with Chromecast built-in so was disappointed.

    Maybe 2022

    Until then , I have to recommend Cambridge Audio CXN V2 (Airplay 2, Roon Ready, Tidal Connect, Chromecast built-in)

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  • Bluey

    New Darko video and he mentions Chromecast support in Naim Uniti and the new Cambridge Audio streaming amp.

    Once again, the Holy Grail of streaming support including all of : Chromecast Built-in, Airplay 2, Roon Ready, Tidal Connect, Spotify Connect support.

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